All About Universities

[Coolkidsrock2]

No offence to Nursing but even after many salary revisions. Auditors starting pay at big 4 is only $3.300 thereabouts. Same for those general degrees I guess?

But the increment and bonus range for auditors is different. Similarly when they change employer and as they move up the corporate ladder.

[Liew Nga Wing]

做人不是每样东西都要向钱看，只要能造福社会，服务人群，都是有意义的工作，钱足够生活就好了 。

[lee_yl]

No offence to Nursing but even after many salary revisions. Auditors starting pay at big 4 is only $3.300 thereabouts. Same for those general degrees I guess?

$3,300? Maybe that’s one of the reason why IGP for Accountancy plunged over the years? Many simply flocked to study computer related Uni courses for the higher starting pay offered.

[Estéema]

Yes, every job can provide meaning & purpose for one to live by. Having said that, in reality, each job is properly benched-mark according to the job value & each of its level, esp so in the public sector.

There must be some hierarchy in every organization based on how each job is valued, w/o which there will be reluctance to take on pertinent responsibilities & every person wants to be the head-man at will. If there is no valuation of remuneration, then each will choose the profession of their interests but avoid taking responsibilities whilst those given formal responsibilities may hv staff climbing over their heads for perceived unfair distribution of workload, etc. Sorry, trying to explain this in layman’s terms.

For the same value of time & expenses put into a medical degree, it shld rationally be remunerated differently fr one acquiring only a nursing diploma w/o internship involved unlike a medical officer spending at least 5 years of formal studies & a year of housemanship. This is assuming entry point of these profession. However, for a nursing degree, it’ll then be ano upgrade in Job ladder & remuneration.

I’ve several nursing frds who were offered later in their career to finish a degree or masters, thereafter promoted to head nursing roles or director roles which became more administrative than on the grounds caring for patients. Obviously, the promotion came with its respective salary band jump.

[slmkhoo]

Besides time/effort at acquiring qualifications, other factors also affect pay - demand, competition from cheaper (foreign) labour, recognition, status, prejudice, etc. While, in general, qualifications that require more work or time to acquire are remunerated more highly, it's not always true. And for some work that is valued highly (e.g. nurses, social workers), the nature of the work, competition from other sources of labour or deep-seated prejudices against such service jobs can depress remuneration.

I still hope that young people will look for work meaningful to themselves and others rather than only look to pay; on the other hand, there is certainly room for more equitable pay across professions.

[zac's mum]

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/jo ... 102023_cna

This article kinda explains why nurses’ pay is depressed/suppressed Singapore. By market forces, Malaysian nurses are happy to cross the border for this “wonderful” salary but Singaporean nurses would find it difficult to survive on.

[MyPillow]

Any idea why engineering courses in NUS has one of the lowest admission requirements (Bs and Cs), compared to the same course (e.g. chemical engineering) in Imperial college which asks for A*A*A (for UK A levels) and AAA (for Singapore-Cambridge A levels) ?

demand and supply. Nowadays alot of kids are not keen in the hardcore/ tech engineering, they may view it as working in manufacturing environment.
though the cut off is lower now compared to our time NUS EE Eng admission is abt AAB/ AAA (20+ yrs) BUT Engineering
course is not a walk in the park at all , maybe more demanding than Comp Sci/ ICT ( 20+ yrs ago ,so many IT grads from private inst eg infommatics etc ) . my dh was NUS EE but ds is choosing IT .
Computer Enginneering is another hot But difficult course, needs lots of professional to do automation, AI integration.

[lee_yl]

Yes, every job can provide meaning & purpose for one to live by. Having said that, in reality, each job is properly benched-mark according to the job value & each of its level, esp so in the public sector.

There must be some hierarchy in every organization based on how each job is valued, w/o which there will be reluctance to take on pertinent responsibilities & every person wants to be the head-man at will. If there is no valuation of remuneration, then each will choose the profession of their interests but avoid taking responsibilities whilst those given formal responsibilities may hv staff climbing over their heads for perceived unfair distribution of workload, etc. Sorry, trying to explain this in layman’s terms.

For the same value of time & expenses put into a medical degree, it shld rationally be remunerated differently fr one acquiring only a nursing diploma w/o internship involved unlike a medical officer spending at least 5 years of formal studies & a year of housemanship. This is assuming entry point of these profession. However, for a nursing degree, it’ll then be ano upgrade in Job ladder & remuneration.

I’ve several nursing frds who were offered later in their career to finish a degree or masters, thereafter promoted to head nursing roles or director roles which became more administrative than on the grounds caring for patients. Obviously, the promotion came with its respective salary band jump.

Talking about hierarchy, those senior management roles in hospitals and medical institutions are all held by doctors. I wonder if they have an inherent bias with respect to nurses?

Are they able to accept nurses as being equal in social and professional standing?

If a nurse with 20 years of working experience could be earning less than a young doctor who just finished his housemanship, then there is a systemic bias against the nurses and it would be very difficult to improve the nurses’ situation. This is despite the fact that there is a world wide shortage of nurses, especially for Singapore as we enter super aged society, and yet the pay for nurses is not catching and the career progression options available to nurses rather limited.

It is not the case as in having studied very very hard that’s why the pay should be higher because in other countries like UK, the doctors though well-regarded as professionals, aren’t earning big bucks like in Singapore. It has to do with our govt policies that keep the supply of doctors tight and shield them from competitive pressures. This is very unlike the case for other professionals like engineers.

I know of a doctor friend about my age who bought a GCB on on her own. If one day, Ong YK decides to massively import doctors from other countries, free up many more places in the local medical faculties, doctors’ earnings will fall.

[Estéema]

Entry point salaries starts within a salary structure & will certainly not function silo. By the time doctors move up their career ladder, some experience & good performing nurses wld only had started their degree & years later Masters. There’ll always be a lag, provided we see passionate individuals, paying for their own nursing degree. Any inordinate remuneration wld hv sent many doctors into private practice or elsewhere.

Shortages of nurses has always been around for ages as far as I rmbr & it’s not just in S’pore. Many Spore nurses in the past hv emigrated to UK, Canada or Australia for its perceived better remunerations & welfare. 3 of my aunts took nursing as a way to emigrate or marry ang moh. A dear nurse frd of mine had combed round the world incl the United States before settling in Australia but had to fight deeply embedded racism. She found racism in the UK & US & cld not take the cold winter in Canada, not to mention the high taxes in European countries! She chose to bite the bullet in Australia coz she’s nearer Asia & her mum & other family members cld help with caring for her young kids back then.

One of my elder SIL’s Filipino helper with her for 12 years went to UK to care for her grandchildren as her daughter was sought after for her nursing experience. But soon enuf found life not as straightfwd as her hubby had to return for lack of job demand for his skill.

As our society find ourselves with a larger senior population, we wld hv trained doctors for geriatric care, o’wise we will hv to import if local talents do not choose to engage the elderly. MOH will hv to watch the training of sufficient local medical officers ahead to meet with current & future needs, and offer sufficient places in our many schools of medicine. I’m sure we will see an exodus of local doctors out of the country, necessitating hiring cheaper medical officers fr elsewhere to supplement shortfalls, if the perceived gaps btwn doctors & nurses are narrowed in the name of equal treatment. In reality some jobs are more valued than others. We had in the past experienced shortages of doctors but hiring fr outside sources had created new challenges in terms of language/dialect communications & even cultural gaps in understanding our local patients.

It is a reality that remuneration moves along demand & supply as pointed out by MP, but does have its limitations. Just as we can expect an overlap of salary level, but we shld not expect an inverted salary band across different job levels. A Remuneration Professional uses technical skill to grade & level jobs, and that’s what every large organization like the Ministry of Health wld have engaged to apply equity in remuneration for sound hinan resources practice within the organization, within the country & benchmark with the region to attract sufficient & the right people for their respective smooth operations.

[lee_yl]

You mean if the salary differential between nurses and doctors is very close, public doctors might as well go into private practice?

As of today, despite a wide salary gap, public doctors are already leaving for the private sector. When doctor wants to leave public hospitals to join the private sector, I don’t think the gap with a nurse’s salary is a consideration!

Even if the Remuneration Professional suggests to increase a graduate nurse’s starting pay to say, $4,500, will the management (largely made up of doctors) share a common bias and moderate down the proposal. Systemic issue is here with the top management made up of doctors and probably no one with a nursing background there.

Increase nurses’ starting pay is just tackling a superficial problem. If we look deeper, there is limited career progression for those taking up nursing. Someone pointed out earlier, if an A level student chooses to study Accountancy, he still has chance to become auditor or even made a partner later on, there’s where the big money is. Even if one were to study NUS Real Estate, the grad can opt to sell new condo in an aircon showroom, better than the hectic life in hospital as a nurse. Join ERA as property agent still has the chance to earn $1m in commission on an annual basis (more than 40 of them from ERA alone in 2022) which is something a nurse will never be able to achieve. Just interview any PHV driver whose pay is $3K+ whether they would like to switch to nursing and offer them $3K+, I think they would rather stay put as PHV drivers.

If I’m a nurse and I know I have limited career progression, but my pay is $5K-$6K, I may still choose to stay put because of the good pay. Or else I won’t stay or even join in the first place. Therefore, if nothing much can be done to offer nurses a viable career progression, maybe one way is to pay them well at the start so they will hesitate to leave for greener pasture.