IP vs O level

[lee_yl]

No surprises when she only got 15 points L1R5 before bonus for O levels. Still good enough for JC and I honestly think she could have made it as her former IP syllabus was to prepare her for A levels. However, she was so demoralized she took the poly route instead. Based on her poly results, she won’t be offered local uni place this year, when it was a breeze for me to get into local uni and was offered a place in all 3 local uni.

Thanks for sharing.

My view is that while there’s 1 such case of failure, there are also thousands of success IP stories out there.

Btw, so it’s her Poly’s fault (or still IP’s fault) that she wasn’t offered a place in the local Uni based on her poly’s results?

[iRabbit]

Sharing as one of the posts in the quote was a question of how hard is it to transfer to O level system from IP.

My younger cousin did better than me in PSLE. She went to Dunman high as it was the nearest IP school to her home. Unfortunately at Sec 3, she didn’t do well enough to be promoted in the IP program and suddenly she was made to take O levels at Sec 4. In such a situation, she is disadvantaged as she only has ONE year to prepare for something that the rest of us had minimally 2 years to prepare for. Her entire syllabus was changed. She wasn’t prepared for the exam syllabus and exam format for O levels.
No surprises when she only got 15 points L1R5 before bonus for O levels. Still good enough for JC and I honestly think she could have made it as her former IP syllabus was to prepare her for A levels. However, she was so demoralized she took the poly route instead. Based on her poly results, she won’t be offered local uni place this year, when it was a breeze for me to get into local uni and was offered a place in all 3 local uni.

And isn’t uni the aim of this poly/JC thing? Then regardless whether they are more academically (JC) or technically (poly) inclined, you can get into local uni. Difference of local uni other than recognition, for those of us whose family background isn’t rich, parents can pay with CPF. Super duper important. Our family don’t have cash. We are all shocked at the outcome. Even my younger brother with 230+ points for PSLE got accepted in local uni just last year through O level->A level route. My younger cousin was definitely the academic kind but she was convinced otherwise by her IP experience. I’m thankful my brother’s result made him no where near the cut to enter IP so the same did not happen to him.

IMO, IP did more harm than good for her. They should have ‘re-streamed’ the students at end of Sec 2 if they want to kick students out to ensure that they have a higher pass rate for A levels. In my time, only the Top 4 sec schools (raffles and HC) had IP program, so all of us in the family had no idea that such a thing could happen that a student cannot be promoted at Sec 3 without any prior preparation for O level. My time, Raffles and Hwa Chong would prepare the students for O levels concurrently if they are likely not to make it and still encourage them to take A levels since that is what the school had always been preparing them for. I had a JC classmate from RI at AJC.

Do review how your child is coping at end of Sec 2 if they are in the IP program. The reason why IP was implemented was (1) to eliminate one extra major exam for the students (2) let students have more time to learn for the sake of learning rather than prepare for exams, not for parents to brag. Keep in mind the end game, not just the accolades you can collect while getting there. Uni still not the end of the road. They need to have relevant skills to be employable. My sister in law took the ITE->poly->Kaplan degree route and has a higher salary than me doing programming despite same number of years of experience. I work in a bank. Her IT skills simply commands a higher salary than mine in today’s economy. My younger cousin took bio-med sciences in poly so I can’t help her with employment/education options now. Hopefully the reports from other parents of O level classes at year 3 means the IP schools have learnt from cases like those of my younger cousin.

Thanks for taking the time to share your cousin’s experience in the IP so generously, gevicra. I noticed that this was your first post (after being dormant for 5 years) and so this IP-O level discussion must have meant something close to your heart.

I think the gist of your sharing was that your younger cousin did better than you for psle, went to IP, got transferred to O level class in Y4, got 15 pts for L1R5, went to poly instead of JC due to low confidence while you went the non-IP route, took A level and graduated from local uni. On the other hand, she would most likely not qualify for local uni after poly.

While read your story, a few queries formed in my mind:

- did your cousin have to be cajoled, nagged, hothoused to achieve her stellar psle results?

- did anything extraordinary happen during the sec sch years, especially in Y3 when she was asked to be transferred to O level class. I’m not sure about the past, but I know currently the practice is that most sch make the decision to transfer students based on the Y2 results. I have the impression her Y3 results must have tanked for the sch to make such a drastic move.

I thought that it’s impt to understand if anything happened in her personal life in sec sch, without which we will naturally gravitate towards blaming the IP system. Sometimes loss of a loved one, family structure breakdown, unrequited puppy love (for some) could cause mayhem in one’s personal life, let alone studies. If any major personal issues had occurred, it would have affected her results even if she had gone to the O level track.

- with her 15 pts from L1R5, she would be able to cut it down to between 11-13 pts after bonus pts were considered. That would have gotten her into a mid-tier JC. And I thought that that’s good enough, really. She could have still strived for the A level after that. However, she lost confidence and went to poly instead. The query which floated in my head when I read this was - when she lost her confidence, did she also lose her interest in studies? That’s a double whammy. I think in situations like these, it would have been appropriate for an adult to step in and share with her that - what’s past is past, learn from it but don’t look back. Just learn to make the best use of the current situation.

And yes, I would have also told her that getting 15 pts with just one year’s prep was commendable.

- no doubt MOE stated that IP students are expected to qualify for local uni, however, even if she do not qualify, it’s not the end-of-the-world apocalyptic scenario. Like what you mentioned, your SIL is earning more than you even though she was from a private uni. Likewise, a poly grad can do very well too. The end point is not at the end of one’s tertiary edu. That’s only the start of the journey. I believe that anyone (poly or uni grad) with the right drive and mental ambition will perform very well in his career.

If we allow this habit of blaming external factors, past failures for our current predicament, then it may become a self-fulfilling prophesy. So advise her not to ruminate about the past, but to learn from it and move on. The future is still bright for her. Chin up!

[Ganjiongspider]

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[passioninlearning]

Here's a little writeup I wrote, with regards to IP and 'O' Levels, leveraging on my experiences working with students over the past 2 decades.
https://passioninlearning.wordpress.com ... ip-course/

Feel free to contact me if any parent here needs more advice.

From your own website posting, u mention following -

"
More importantly, there is another aspect that many parents may overlook :

Many parents thought that, in the event the child can’t cope, they can also revert back to the main stream. While this is true, a school which has the full array of subject combinations will not be able to reproduce this, for main stream students. This will mean that the desired choice of subjects may not be available to students who switch to the mainsteam course, and there is only one class or two. Not to mention, the child’s morale may have taken a beating too, and the stigma that the child may face amongst his or her peers. It is hence imperative that parents put in due consideration, and make an informed decision ".

Not too sure what u mean by "only one class or two", under "parents may overlook" (refer above, in bold).

May we clarify what are these "one class or two" u referring to?

Are u referring to those one or two classes of Sec 3 & 4 students allowed to do Triple Sciences in the O level Mainstream schools, or u mean something else ? Can you elaborate, give example of such "one class or two", or give example why IP students cannot go back to O level easily, even if IP parent (student) request for the Transfer ? Thanks.

What I meant is illustrated as below:
Schools typically have a few classes that offer different subject combinations.In an IP-dominated school, the number of students transferring out to mainsteam path could be such that there is little or no option available, as it is possibly a class of less than 20 students.This is indeed the case for at least one of the top IP schools in Singapore.

Hope this clarification helps.

[newkeynesian]

Seems to me that the main message here is this : IP is meant for the truly gifted students whilst those hothoused (mainstreamers and GEP alike) better stay away from IP and enrol into O level to avoid potential repercussions in the future. Sure there is no hidden agenda?

[gevicra]

No surprises when she only got 15 points L1R5 before bonus for O levels. Still good enough for JC and I honestly think she could have made it as her former IP syllabus was to prepare her for A levels. However, she was so demoralized she took the poly route instead. Based on her poly results, she won’t be offered local uni place this year, when it was a breeze for me to get into local uni and was offered a place in all 3 local uni.

Thanks for sharing.

My view is that while there’s 1 such case of failure, there are also thousands of success IP stories out there.

Btw, so it’s her Poly’s fault (or still IP’s fault) that she wasn’t offered a place in the local Uni based on her poly’s results?

I think a lesson to learn here is really consider what is the suitable route for a child to take. My cousin is not suited to a technical route. She got 259 entirely without tuition, while my brother got 230+ with tuition. IP made her so demoralized she made the wrong decision to go the poly route when I think she would have done just fine and gone into uni via A level route. Like someone else said, her O level results are perfectly decent given she only had one year of preparation and doesn’t show she could not have done well at A levels. I think it’s really a shame she isn’t going to uni now, likely have to consider private uni route BUT that means she will have to study and work at the same time whilst local uni would mean she could study full time on her parents’ CPF. There were no other external factors that caused her to do badly.

All of us thought it was normal that her results were not stellar all the while just because IP is harder. None of us were prepared for her to not be promoted to take A levels. Also, Dunman was still a very new IP school back then, so I think her teachers were not very good at advising when a student should have switched out earlier to prepare for O levels. If they are doing better now, then likely the school learnt from past lessons, but I think we cannot rely completely on schools and parents need to watch out for their children themselves. Don’t switch too late.

That’s why I mention my SIL as well. She didn’t study all the way until ITE. When you have the right method of learning, one can really flourish and go on to do very well. My SIL didn’t do well in poly final year only because her dad passed on. Still did well at Kaplan and her employer’s technical test to get into her job today. Edit to add, my SIL wasn’t clicking well with her Kaplan’s lecturer’s teaching methods and she is eternally grateful to her ITE and poly lecturers who gave her support even when she was at Kaplan and was willing to clarify stuff to her when she reached out to them. There’s nothing wrong about IP or any routes. Sometimes is just a matter of what fits and what doesn’t.

[MittenMom]

After going through a frenzy of DSA, PSLE, School Selection last year and seeing the after school-posting frenzy of appeal, transfer and fretting by some parents... and further down to regrets/ panic of some parents when they see their childs' sec 1 results in IP schools, here's what I can gather:

1) If you MUST have elite school name in your child's resume but somehow your child is not successful in DSA or did not meet cut-off with PSLE results, opt for O level track instead of opting for a IP school that is not your choice. You child will mature and grow in 4 years' time, find their area of interest or strength in the subject. ...... you can get another shot to satisfy your needs for elite schools (JC). Afterall both IP or O levels lead to the same destination. Just a different route and experience for your child.

2) If you need to see all the As and high marks on your child's results, don't go IP. The competition is brutal. In most schools, the spread of the t-score for each intake is very narrow. Meaning, your child can be top in 1 test and ousted out from his/her throne easily. Everyone is almost equally good. It is not like primary school where the spread is wide, and the top 10 % is pretty much dominated by that few kids.

2) If your child needs lots of pushing and rely heavily on tuition and spoon feeding to score well, be prepared to support your child for the revolutionary change if you opt for IP. If you don't have confidence that your child will learn to be self-driven and are not game to let them try or fail in school exams, go O level track. O levels has a more structured teaching syllabus and you can find lots of tuition centers, assessments books out there to help your child. High possibility that they will continue to do well in O levels and go to good JCs. Saves you sleepless nights.

3) If you are chill about your child's results and are more focused on other developments e.g. leadership, independence, self reliance, communication, Knowledge outside textbooks etc, Go IP if you are offered. Your child may not be the top in their class/ school, they may fail tests/ exams but will have lots of opportunities and exposure. They will have a good time!

4) If your child is super driven of course just go for IP. They will do well wherever they are and still have a good time.

Secondary school selection is tricky... most kids are too young to decide what they really want. Parents may have different priority vs the kids preference....

[AppleCrumble]

After going through a frenzy of DSA, PSLE, School Selection last year and seeing the after school-posting frenzy of appeal, transfer and fretting by some parents... and further down to regrets/ panic of some parents when they see their childs' sec 1 results in IP schools, here's what I can gather:

1) If you MUST have elite school name in your child's resume but somehow your child is not successful in DSA or did not meet cut-off with PSLE results, opt for O level track instead of opting for a IP school that is not your choice. You child will mature and grow in 4 years' time, find their area of interest or strength in the subject. ...... you can get another shot to satisfy your needs for elite schools (JC). Afterall both IP or O levels lead to the same destination. Just a different route and experience for your child.

2) If you need to see all the As and high marks on your child's results, don't go IP. The competition is brutal. In most schools, the spread of the t-score for each intake is very narrow. Meaning, your child can be top in 1 test and ousted out from his/her throne easily. Everyone is almost equally good. It is not like primary school where the spread is wide, and the top 10 % is pretty much dominated by that few kids.

2) If your child needs lots of pushing and rely heavily on tuition and spoon feeding to score well, be prepared to support your child for the revolutionary change if you opt for IP. If you don't have confidence that your child will learn to be self-driven and are not game to let them try or fail in school exams, go O level track. O levels has a more structured teaching syllabus and you can find lots of tuition centers, assessments books out there to help your child. High possibility that they will continue to do well in O levels and go to good JCs. Saves you sleepless nights.

3) If you are chill about your child's results and are more focused on other developments e.g. leadership, independence, self reliance, communication, Knowledge outside textbooks etc, Go IP if you are offered. Your child may not be the top in their class/ school, they may fail tests/ exams but will have lots of opportunities and exposure. They will have a good time!

4) If your child is super driven of course just go for IP. They will do well wherever they are and still have a good time.

Secondary school selection is tricky... most kids are too young to decide what they really want. Parents may have different priority vs the kids preference....

Well said and so true!!!

[virus]

After going through a frenzy of DSA, PSLE, School Selection last year and seeing the after school-posting frenzy of appeal, transfer and fretting by some parents... and further down to regrets/ panic of some parents when they see their childs' sec 1 results in IP schools, here's what I can gather:

1) If you MUST have elite school name in your child's resume but somehow your child is not successful in DSA or did not meet cut-off with PSLE results, opt for O level track instead of opting for a IP school that is not your choice. You child will mature and grow in 4 years' time, find their area of interest or strength in the subject. ...... you can get another shot to satisfy your needs for elite schools (JC). Afterall both IP or O levels lead to the same destination. Just a different route and experience for your child.

2) If you need to see all the As and high marks on your child's results, don't go IP. The competition is brutal. In most schools, the spread of the t-score for each intake is very narrow. Meaning, your child can be top in 1 test and ousted out from his/her throne easily. Everyone is almost equally good. It is not like primary school where the spread is wide, and the top 10 % is pretty much dominated by that few kids.

2) If your child needs lots of pushing and rely heavily on tuition and spoon feeding to score well, be prepared to support your child for the revolutionary change if you opt for IP. If you don't have confidence that your child will learn to be self-driven and are not game to let them try or fail in school exams, go O level track. O levels has a more structured teaching syllabus and you can find lots of tuition centers, assessments books out there to help your child. High possibility that they will continue to do well in O levels and go to good JCs. Saves you sleepless nights.

3) If you are chill about your child's results and are more focused on other developments e.g. leadership, independence, self reliance, communication, Knowledge outside textbooks etc, Go IP if you are offered. Your child may not be the top in their class/ school, they may fail tests/ exams but will have lots of opportunities and exposure. They will have a good time!

4) If your child is super driven of course just go for IP. They will do well wherever they are and still have a good time.

Secondary school selection is tricky... most kids are too young to decide what they really want. Parents may have different priority vs the kids preference....

Its a great post

hoping to have more such insightful posts in the future

[sembgal]

What are the implications of choosing the Integrated Programme (IP)? How does this route compare to the 4-year GCE O-Level and 2-year A-Level route?