All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Unlike entry to Primary Schools, admission into Secondary Schools is based on meritocracy. PSLE results are used as key admission criteria. Discuss everything related to PSLE and selection of Secondary Schools here.
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Davischew
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by Davischew » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:12 am

tryourbest wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:04 am
Agree that students with no learning disabilities should not be exempted from MTL. Simply having no interest in MTL is not a good enough reason to be exempted. There are many children who also have no interest in MTL , but no choice, still have to bite the bullet and try to achieve the best grade to their ability. All these doesn't come easy. Lots of hard work and tears. The time taken to brush up on MTL for these students also inevitably eats into their revision time for the other 3 subjects. Focusing on 3 vs 4 subjects makes a huge diff. Having a weaker subject also affects their opportunities to enter top elite schools. There's no easy way out. But at least they bother to try...


If a child has a learning disability, by all means be exempted to make the learning process a more pleasant one. But definitely unfair if the intention is for a normal , bright child aiming for 3 A* / 3 AL1 to enter elite schools.

There's really a big difference between taking a MTL which is examinable in all components - Oral, Compo, LC, Paper 2 vs a foreign language for leisure. Like one mother here puts it : " U don't know the pain until you have tried it."
Yes this is true - " U don't know the pain until you have tried it."
But since you know the pain now, why want to bring it to others who have a chance to skip it?
It's like the old times where there were slavery, and 1 of them managed to escape, but the rest think is unfair, would rather "it" stay and suffer together.

hb
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by hb » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:37 am

Davischew wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:12 am

Yes this is true - " U don't know the pain until you have tried it."
But since you know the pain now, why want to bring it to others who have a chance to skip it?
It's like the old times where there were slavery, and 1 of them managed to escape, but the rest think is unfair, would rather "it" stay and suffer together.
OT, but this is why people complain every time there are changes to NS...if they had to suffer, why shouldn't the next generation of boys have to suffer too???

I don't think MTL policy should be about pain lah. (After all, there are kids who like Chinese...right??) But I do think MOE's MTL policy is a bit confused. Is it important for kids to take MTL because they should know their ethnic heritage (in which case I can see why MOE allowed kids of mixed parentage to choose their 2nd language), or because it's important to know one of Singapore's national languages (esp since they are in the Singapore public school system)? Allowing kids of mixed parentage to take a different language but imputing a grade of AL6-8 is kind of a weird compromise*, and I can see why parents would be upset about it.

*MTL exemption for kids with learning disabilities is a completely separate thing.

floppy
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by floppy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:04 am

hb wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:37 am
Davischew wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:12 am

Yes this is true - " U don't know the pain until you have tried it."
But since you know the pain now, why want to bring it to others who have a chance to skip it?
It's like the old times where there were slavery, and 1 of them managed to escape, but the rest think is unfair, would rather "it" stay and suffer together.
OT, but this is why people complain every time there are changes to NS...if they had to suffer, why shouldn't the next generation of boys have to suffer too???

I don't think MTL policy should be about pain lah. (After all, there are kids who like Chinese...right??) But I do think MOE's MTL policy is a bit confused. Is it important for kids to take MTL because they should know their ethnic heritage (in which case I can see why MOE allowed kids of mixed parentage to choose their 2nd language), or because it's important to know one of Singapore's national languages (esp since they are in the Singapore public school system)? Allowing kids of mixed parentage to take a different language but imputing a grade of AL6-8 is kind of a weird compromise*, and I can see why parents would be upset about it.

*MTL exemption for kids with learning disabilities is a completely separate thing.
This isn't the same as slavery.

As MOE alluded to, "(the) rationale is grounded in its philosophy of underscoring the importance of studying the MTLs." It's really beyond the simple pursuit of knowledge in a language. MTL is an important (and uniquely Singapore) component of the national identity. If you want a public education, you can't really pick-and-choose the best/better components (EL, Math and Science) and discard the one you are least interested in (MTL). Setting a max imputed score of AL6 as a compromise is probably not the best solution but it is a good start in nudging people with no obvious disability (and those people thinking about it) back in line with the national policy on public education.

I can understand Madam Wee frustration with the changes in the policy. While the details may be "unexpected", the signal to expect changes was raised in July 2016. The main concern seems to be "unfair and pegged too low" compared with the Standard Level subjects resulting in an disadvantage to their children. Seriously, if you are already getting a free pass on a subject, what's the ground to complain about the score being pegged too low?

MrsKiasu
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by MrsKiasu » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:07 pm

me think that if dont want get allocated a score, option is there, just learn the subject.. I always feel very amazed with dd's non Chinese friends taking CL..I think quite many of them. Learning Chi has its advantages I would like to think.

to add: referring to those without learning difficulties..
Last edited by MrsKiasu on Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lee_yl
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by lee_yl » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:07 pm

Shouldn’t MOE look into ways to deter those who made false claims of having learning difficulties to be exempted from MTL rather than penalize all, including those genuine cases like Dyslexia, Autism etc.

Those who seek to get exemption so that they could score 3A*s and enter an elite school, should be dealt with accordingly but I have seen genuine cases who are not just having difficulties in MTL but also jialak in other subjects, quite pitiful.

The idea is to compare and assign a fair grade to these children which they would have gotten if they were NORMAL.


lee_yl
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by lee_yl » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:31 pm

lee_yl wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:31 pm
What I find confusing is that para 2 (in MOE’s FAQ on the matter) talks about the imputed MT score and reassures that this is how things are done for the current t-score computation.

Then in para 3, it talks about assigning AL 6-8 to the MT score. There’s a lack of coherence between these paragraphs and MOE should have been clearer in its communication

About MOE’s FAQ regarding the MTL grade for PSLE, while the para 2 and 3 appear incoherent and even somewhat contradictory, it’s possible to rationalise if the word “representative” used in para 2 is analysed deeper.

Telling that “representative” is used and not more statistically meaningful terms like mean or median as this could be more arbitrary. Assuming that both para 2 and 3 are coherent, the only conclusion that I can draw is that “representative” means the 3 lowest grades possible, that is AL6-8. Arbitrary because the grade is pre-assigned even before taking PSLE!

slmkhoo
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by slmkhoo » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:47 pm

floppy wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:06 am
Hendon wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:25 am
...
I feel Singaporean children with no learning disabilities should NOT be exempted from MTL just because of mixed parentage. They are benefitting from the Singapore schools and will also compete in future for everything here. Now let’s be fair. MOE should remove this ability to obtain exemption for such cases.
I think the updated policies hit two groups of people.

1. People with learning challenges.
While AL6 (pegged to foundation subjects) is the highest, they aren’t being disadvantaged in pursuing an Express / G3 stream. They need only 3x AL5 or better because students in this range are going to score AL6 or better for their MTL (resulting in an imputed MTL score of AL6). I think it affects people’s sensibility for the blatant truth to be spelled out in policy but TBH it would be unrealistic to expect most of them to qualify for the top schools (~AL10), with or without the AL6 max limit. Nonetheless, if they turn out to be a savant, the DSA route would be the most logical and viable option.

2. Foreign language in lieu of MTL
TBF, I don’t see why having a mixed parentage or being a foreigner should exempt you from the terms of a public education. If policy says you must pick one of the 3 MTL, or for non-Tamil Indians, one of several other MTL, you just have to do it. If you don’t like what is being offered, private or international schools are available for a purpose. Lack of interest in a particular MTL should not be an accepted excuse. FYI there are several kids I know who are of Dutch, Jewish etc parentage (and not to mention the increasing number of Pinoy) taking HCL. Setting a max imputed score of AL6 as a compromise is probably not the best solution but is helpful in nudging people with no obvious disability back in line with the national policy on public education.
There is a 3rd group - those who get exemption because they have spent several years in a foreign education system and are judged to have insufficient time to catch up in time for PSLE. Eg. a child who has studied overseas in a situation where parents and school are unable to help him keep up with MTL, and only returns to Singapore in P4, say. Perhaps MOE could be more understanding to these kids as it is really very hard to have to make the switch to Singapore requirements in the other subjects while coping with the re-entry transition, and also have to learn a 2nd language pretty much from scratch. Or at least, for such kids who return later, eg. after P2.

Nebbermind
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by Nebbermind » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:20 pm

floppy wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:06 am
I think the updated policies hit two groups of people.

1. People with learning challenges.
While AL6 (pegged to foundation subjects) is the highest, they aren’t being disadvantaged in pursuing an Express / G3 stream. They need only 3x AL5 or better because students in this range are going to score AL6 or better for their MTL (resulting in an imputed MTL score of AL6). I think it affects people’s sensibility for the blatant truth to be spelled out in policy but TBH it would be unrealistic to expect most of them to qualify for the top schools (~AL10), with or without the AL6 max limit. Nonetheless, if they turn out to be a savant, the DSA route would be the most logical and viable option.

2. Foreign language in lieu of MTL
TBF, I don’t see why having a mixed parentage or being a foreigner should exempt you from the terms of a public education. If policy says you must pick one of the 3 MTL, or for non-Tamil Indians, one of several other MTL, you just have to do it. If you don’t like what is being offered, private or international schools are available for a purpose. Lack of interest in a particular MTL should not be an accepted excuse. FYI there are several kids I know who are of Dutch, Jewish etc parentage (and not to mention the increasing number of Pinoy) taking HCL. Setting a max imputed score of AL6 as a compromise is probably not the best solution but is helpful in nudging people with no obvious disability back in line with the national policy on public education.
Image

lee_yl
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by lee_yl » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:25 pm

cherrygal wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:29 am
The updated one with AL6-8 allocation is fairer.

The current system (under T score) is pegged to peers. So when these kids w no medical reasons focus on 3 subjects, they are actually aiming 3A*. Their MTL grade is riding on what the other 3 A* kids can get for MTL. And usu if the peers are that brilliant, the MTL grade ain't far off.
This is what I understand from friends about the current system. If most kids who scored 3A*, also scored A*/A for MTL, then the exempted kid with 3A* will probably get A*/A.

But why did the latest MOE’s FAQ paragraph 2 state that for the new AL Banding system, how they allocate MTL marks for exempted students will be the “same as current tscore”?

Under current tscore system, are there children exempted from MTL, who managed to get into IP via t-score? Are they assigned an imputed score (capped at 64% ) for MTL for exempted students?

Again, MOE’s FAQ raises more questions instead of clarifying our doubts

Hendon
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by Hendon » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:12 pm

floppy wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:04 am
hb wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:37 am
Davischew wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:12 am

Yes this is true - " U don't know the pain until you have tried it."
But since you know the pain now, why want to bring it to others who have a chance to skip it?
It's like the old times where there were slavery, and 1 of them managed to escape, but the rest think is unfair, would rather "it" stay and suffer together.
OT, but this is why people complain every time there are changes to NS...if they had to suffer, why shouldn't the next generation of boys have to suffer too???

I don't think MTL policy should be about pain lah. (After all, there are kids who like Chinese...right??) But I do think MOE's MTL policy is a bit confused. Is it important for kids to take MTL because they should know their ethnic heritage (in which case I can see why MOE allowed kids of mixed parentage to choose their 2nd language), or because it's important to know one of Singapore's national languages (esp since they are in the Singapore public school system)? Allowing kids of mixed parentage to take a different language but imputing a grade of AL6-8 is kind of a weird compromise*, and I can see why parents would be upset about it.

*MTL exemption for kids with learning disabilities is a completely separate thing.
This isn't the same as slavery.

As MOE alluded to, "(the) rationale is grounded in its philosophy of underscoring the importance of studying the MTLs." It's really beyond the simple pursuit of knowledge in a language. MTL is an important (and uniquely Singapore) component of the national identity. If you want a public education, you can't really pick-and-choose the best/better components (EL, Math and Science) and discard the one you are least interested in (MTL). Setting a max imputed score of AL6 as a compromise is probably not the best solution but it is a good start in nudging people with no obvious disability (and those people thinking about it) back in line with the national policy on public education.

I can understand Madam Wee frustration with the changes in the policy. While the details may be "unexpected", the signal to expect changes was raised in July 2016. The main concern seems to be "unfair and pegged too low" compared with the Standard Level subjects resulting in an disadvantage to their children. Seriously, if you are already getting a free pass on a subject, what's the ground to complain about the score being pegged too low?
Funny how people are overanalysing MOE faq. Just ask them!

As for the petition starter, since you brought her up, she is a Singaporean Chinese married to an UK guy, I wonder which language did she opt for her kids

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