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Postby The Alternative Story » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:04 pm

starlight1968sg wrote:
The Alternative Story wrote:
For your example:

John was sick because he ate some rotten apples.

The 'eating of rotten apples' explains why he is sick.
It does not indicate that one action has happened first.
It is a reason-result type of sentence.
It is not a sentence indicating the different timing of 2 actions.
Hence the past perfect tense should not be used.

TAS

I am unclear; isn't "had eaten some rotten apples" being the first and "was sick" the second action?
Thanks.


Hi starlight,

Yes it seems that way, but 'was sick' is the result of 'eating the rotten apples'. It is a result-reason type of question.
When past perfect tense
is used, it is to show that one action is completed
before the other started.

- After I had eaten my dinner, I went to see a movie.

Here, it shows that one action is completed (eating dinner)
before another (going to see a movie).

In the 'John was sick' example, the being sick and
eating apples is not connected based on a timeline
but based on giving the result of eating the apples.

TAS

The Alternative Story
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Postby starlight1968sg » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:08 pm

The Alternative Story wrote: Hi starlight,

Yes it seems that way, but 'was sick' is the result of 'eating the rotten apples'. It is a result-reason type of question.
When past perfect tense
is used, it is to show that one action is completed
before the other started.

- After I had eaten my dinner, I went to see a movie.

Here, it shows that one action is completed (eating dinner)
before another (going to see a movie).

In the 'John was sick' example, the being sick and
eating apples is not connected based on a timeline
but based on giving the result of eating the apples.

TAS

Thanks so much for sharing.
This Present perfect tense and Past perfect tense are driving me nuts.

BTW, using your example, what is the difference between
(1) After I had eaten my dinner, I went to see a movie.
(2) After I have eaten my dinner, I went to see a movie.

Many thanks.

starlight1968sg
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Postby The Alternative Story » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:16 pm

Hi starlight,

No problem, it is a very confusing part of the English grammar :?
Many students find it difficult.

(2) is wrong because you ate your dinner first and then went to see a movie. And the verb used for 'seeing a movie' is in the past tense.
So since 'eating my dinner' occurred before 'seeing a movie',
it must be the past perfect tense (had eaten).
The past perfect tense indicates that the earlier action happened
before another action in the past. That means that while both actions
happened in the past, the past perfect tense indicates the earlier action.

You can remember it as a timeline:

1) Past perfect----- 2) Past tense ------3) Present perfect
----4) Present tense


TAS

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Postby starlight1968sg » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:20 pm

The Alternative Story wrote: You can remember it as a timeline:

1) Past perfect----- 2) Past tense ------3) Present perfect
----4) Present tense


TAS

Thanks again.
Can you elaborate more on the above timeline?

starlight1968sg
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Postby The Alternative Story » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:30 pm

starlight1968sg wrote:
The Alternative Story wrote: You can remember it as a timeline:

1) Past perfect----- 2) Past tense ------3) Present perfect
----4) Present tense


TAS

Thanks again.
Can you elaborate more on the above timeline?


Hi starlight,

The timeline can be used to help you to remember
the sequence of events. If you start with the past perfect tense,
you can remember that it is the action that happened the earliest
followed by the past tense and then the present perfect and then the present tense.

Another way to understand how the present/past perfect tenses is
used is this:

- They are used when there is no specific time stated.

Eg: He has failed his examinations again

- They are often used together with 'since' and 'for'

Eg: I have lived here for 20 years.
Eg: She had lived here since her birth and that was why
she was buried here.

TAS

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Postby starlight1968sg » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:34 pm

The Alternative Story wrote:
Hi starlight,

The timeline can be used to help you to remember
the sequence of events. If you start with the past perfect tense,
you can remember that it is the action that happened the earliest
followed by the past tense and then the present perfect and then the present tense.

Another way to understand how the present/past perfect tenses is
used is this:

- They are used when there is no specific time stated.

Eg: He has failed his examinations again

- They are often used together with 'since' and 'for'

Eg: I have lived here for 20 years.
Eg: She had lived here since her birth and that was why
she was buried here.

TAS

Once again, thanks.
With this timeline, I clearly can see that
"After I have eaten my dinner, I went to see a movie" is wrong.

It should be
"After I have eaten my dinner, I go to see a movie".

starlight1968sg
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Postby tianzhu » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:47 pm

Hi TAS

Thank you for your reply. Your presence in KSP has certainly brightened up this thread.

The words after and before already make the time relationship clear. In other words, could we use the Past Tense instead of Past Perfect Tense with after and before?

After I had eaten my dinner, I went to see a movie. (Original sentence)

Could we say?
1) After I had my dinner, I went to see a movie.
2) After I ate my dinner, I went to see a movie.

Best wishes

tianzhu
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Postby tianzhu » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:04 pm

Hi TAS

How about this sentence? Is it correct?

John got a stomach ache because he had eaten some rotten apples.

Best wishes

tianzhu
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Postby tianzhu » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:13 pm

Hi TAS

For Herbie’s question, could we leave out had and say

The teacher punished the students who triggered the fire alarm.

who triggered the fire alarm is a relative clause in this example

Are the following sentences grammatically correct? Could we leave out the word had?

a) There was ice cream that Mum made herself.
b) There was ice cream that Mum had made herself.
c) The car which crashed into the gate belonged to Peter.
d) The car which had crashed into the gate belonged to Peter.
e) She was engaged to a sailor whom, she met in Taiwan.
f) She was engaged to a sailor whom, she had met in Taiwan.
g) The girl who you met yesterday lives in Yishun.
h) The girl who you had met yesterday lives in Yishun.

Best wishes
Last edited by tianzhu on Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Postby tianzhu » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:26 pm

Hi TAS

THE two golfers playing in Mr Alan's flight of three had assumed that the businessman had gone home.

Could we have two Past perfect Tenses in one sentence?

Best wishes
Last edited by tianzhu on Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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