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Postby pixiedust » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:41 pm

TAS,

Thanks for your explanations. I am also struggling with perfect tense. It is still foggy for me after reading through the explanations. Have you come across any good reference book in this area ?

My contribution to the confusing pair :

believe vs belief

pixiedust
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Postby starlight1968sg » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:51 pm

pixiedust wrote: TAS,
My contribution to the confusing pair :
believe vs belief

Believe is a verb;
belief is a noun (?)

starlight1968sg
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Postby tianzhu » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:25 pm

Hi TAS

Which sentence is correct?

1)The students were punished because they had triggered the fire alarm.
2)The students were punished because they triggered the fire alarm.
3)The students were punished because they had been triggering the fire alarm.
4)The students were punished because the fire alarm had been triggered by them.

Best wishes
Last edited by tianzhu on Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby pixiedust » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:52 pm

Understand the verb vs noun but the challenge is how to help the kids remember hence contributed to the confusing pair list.
Hope to have some good mnemonic like princiPAL vs pinciple to help kids remember.

For tianzhu's latest question, my guess is (2) ie. past tense is correct because of the cause-effect reasoning ?


TAS,
I am confused about past tense vs present perfect.
Both are for completed actions so when to use past tense and when to use present perfect ?
Eg. (a) Anne ate her breakfast (b) Anne has eaten her breakfast.

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Postby tianzhu » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:33 pm

The Alternative Story wrote:The 'eating of rotten apples' explains why he is sick.
It does not indicate that one action has happened first.
It is a reason-result type of sentence.
It is not a sentence indicating the different timing of 2 actions.
Hence the past perfect tense should not be used.


Hi TAS
Thank you for your reply.

The act of eating the rotten apples comes first, then John becomes sick.

John was sick, it refers to some point of time in the past.
He had eaten some rotten apples before he became sick.
Timeline---John was sick(Past Tense), He had taken some rotten apples(Past Perfect)
Could this explanation be used to justify this sentence.
John was sick because he had eaten some rotten apples.

How about this?
John was sick because he had been eating some rotten apples.

Best wishes

tianzhu
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Postby The Alternative Story » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:21 pm

starlight1968sg wrote:
The Alternative Story wrote:
Hi starlight,

The timeline can be used to help you to remember
the sequence of events. If you start with the past perfect tense,
you can remember that it is the action that happened the earliest
followed by the past tense and then the present perfect and then the present tense.

Another way to understand how the present/past perfect tenses is
used is this:

- They are used when there is no specific time stated.

Eg: He has failed his examinations again

- They are often used together with 'since' and 'for'

Eg: I have lived here for 20 years.
Eg: She had lived here since her birth and that was why
she was buried here.

TAS

Once again, thanks.
With this timeline, I clearly can see that
"After I have eaten my dinner, I went to see a movie" is wrong.

It should be
"After I have eaten my dinner, I go to see a movie".


No prob Starlight

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Postby The Alternative Story » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:31 pm

tianzhu wrote:Hi TAS

Thank you for your reply. Your presence in KSP has certainly brightened up this thread.

The words after and before already make the time relationship clear. In other words, could we use the Past Tense instead of Past Perfect Tense with after and before?

After I had eaten my dinner, I went to see a movie. (Original sentence)

Could we say?
1) After I had my dinner, I went to see a movie.
2) After I ate my dinner, I went to see a movie.

Best wishes


Hi tianzhu,

The words 'before' and 'after' indicate the timing. However it is grammatically wrong to say:

- After I ate my dinner, I went to see a movie/After I had my dinner, I went to see a movie.

It is clear that there are 2 actions involved here and one has been completed before the other one starts. The past perfect tense must be used to indicate that one task was completed earlier.

By the way, for 'After I had my dinner, I went to see a movie', the correct version sounds wrong but it is actually correct.

The correct version is:

- After I had had my dinner, I went to see a movie.

'had had' is the past perfect tense of 'had'.

TAS

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Postby The Alternative Story » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:34 pm

tianzhu wrote:Hi TAS

How about this sentence? Is it correct?

John got a stomach ache because he had eaten some rotten apples.

Best wishes


Hi tianzhu,

In this case, it is not grammatically wrong however, it is also correct to say that:

John got a stomachache because he ate some rotten apples. You do not need to use the past perfect tense as this sentence indicates a reason-result relationship and not one where there are 2 actions done at different times. The focus is on the causal relationship and not on the different timings.

TAS

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Postby tree nymph » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:39 pm

Hi TAS,

Any recommendation for a good grammar guide book?

tree nymph
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Postby tree nymph » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:41 pm

TAS,
sorry, i didn't start on the first page... Are you teaching anywhere? could you PM me the details please?

Thanks!

tree nymph
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