All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Unlike entry to Primary Schools, admission into Secondary Schools is based on meritocracy. PSLE results are used as key admission criteria. Discuss everything related to PSLE and selection of Secondary Schools here.
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Selrahc
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by Selrahc » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:10 am

Should we start another topic on this MTL exemption discussion and petition or another topic to discuss the understanding and tackling of the AL scoring system? The discussion is overwhelmingly centred on the MTL exemption which I believe there are many parents who are more concerned about understanding the AL system going forward (original intent of this thread, I believe) and much less about MTL exemptions and the justice of it.

MerlionInGermany
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by MerlionInGermany » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:11 am

slmkhoo wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:02 am
Zappy wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:58 am
Seems like the stress of PSLE is developing a mob mentality here mocking & belittling the petitioners.

While I do not fundamentally agree with them not taking MTL if there isn’t a disability-reason, I also do not know their exact circumstance or indeed what they have been told at the beginning.

The parents certainly have the right to petition MOE to review their cases and have done so. Additionally, based on the policies that have been cut-and-pasted from MOE FAQs, there was arguably indeed a change in policy or at least some ambiguity that “may” have led to them making a different decision. If that turns out to be not the case, then MOE will deal with it since they will get the full arguments/ information.

You may or may not agree with the parents’ intentions or the MOE policy. But there is no need to mock the kids for something that is likely not their decision - they have certainly committed no crime, either in not taking MTL or the fact that their parents are making an appeal.
I agree. While there is nothing wrong with changing policies, MOE should consider those who are caught with the policies changing while they are in mid-stream. The parents made choices based on the policies at the time, and some choices cannot be reversed so easily. The merits of the new policies are a separate issue. And yes, I do agree that the tone of some of the posts reflects badly on those posters. Thankfully, they are a small, though vocal, minority here.
The child is in p3 in 2019, new AL system was announced in 2016, when the child was in k2. Even though in 2016, there was no explicit details, they must know there will be a change. With that in mind, they decided to go ahead with the FL in lieu of MT. They must have decided that learning FL gives the child more happiness than CL and happiness of the child takes priority over that academic result slip. And now that the details are out, they are still allowed to continue with the FL, in pursuit of the child’s well-being, their initial objective of taking FL in lieu of MT stays. So unless the intention was otherwise, there is nothing to complain about.

MOE is not wrong to grant FL in lieu of MT. They must have given very good reasons why taking FL is much better than MT for the child, and I am guessing none of the reasons given was about academic grades. So MOE says ok, all these good reasons, so yes, if you want FL, do it.

Can a K2, or a p1, actually tell you they have an interest in German? So do we homeschool them if they tell us they have no interest in going to school?
Last edited by MerlionInGermany on Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Davischew
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by Davischew » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:13 am

Zappy wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:01 am
Davischew wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:58 am

The lady was wrong to assume "effectively will receive A*".
It must have pegged to similar EMS scores of other pupils.
Her statement was misleading.
I think she assumed that those who scored A* for EMS will also score A* for MTL, which is unlikely to be true for the entire cohort. But even the average of those 3A* EMS students should be overall higher than AL6-8.
Even if the average of 3A* pupils get 100 for MTL, there is still a factor (not sure if's 0.64), so it still scale down to max 64 points.

Zappy
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by Zappy » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:22 am

Davischew wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:13 am
Zappy wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:01 am
Davischew wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:58 am

The lady was wrong to assume "effectively will receive A*".
It must have pegged to similar EMS scores of other pupils.
Her statement was misleading.
I think she assumed that those who scored A* for EMS will also score A* for MTL, which is unlikely to be true for the entire cohort. But even the average of those 3A* EMS students should be overall higher than AL6-8.
Even if the average of 3A* pupils get 100 for MTL, there is still a factor (not sure if's 0.64), so it still scale down to max 64 points.
That 64% that is being discussed comes from AL6 (45-64%)

lee_yl
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by lee_yl » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:23 am

Davischew wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:13 am
Even if the average of 3A* pupils get 100, for MTL there is still a factor (not sure if's 0.64), so it still scale down to max 64 points.
If the ST forum letter is misleading, then MOE should come out to clarify. Else there will be readers who believe that it is possible to get an imputed score of A* for MTL for exempted students.

Under the current tscore system, EMS average score 95% + imputed MTL score 64%, tscore likely to be around 255, eligible for IP, not necessary must be A* for Chinese

Good for MOE to also confirm if exempted student could only get an imputed score capped at 64% for MTL under the current tscore system.


floppy
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by floppy » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:25 pm

lee_yl wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:23 am
Davischew wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:13 am
Even if the average of 3A* pupils get 100, for MTL there is still a factor (not sure if's 0.64), so it still scale down to max 64 points.
If the ST forum letter is misleading, then MOE should come out to clarify. Else there will be readers who believe that it is possible to get an imputed score of A* for MTL for exempted students.

Under the current tscore system, EMS average score 95% + imputed MTL score 64%, tscore likely to be around 255, eligible for IP, not necessary must be A* for Chinese

Good for MOE to also confirm if exempted student could only get an imputed score capped at 64% for MTL under the current tscore system.
This is where understanding of political doublespeak would be useful. Also, it is why the marketplace Chinese aunties would advise you to 看戏要看全套,听话要听到完.

Firstly, the letter is not misleading. Previously, the assigned MTL score is made with reference to MTL scores of other students who have achieved similar scores in EMS. Therefore, students who scores A* in EMS could possibly receive A* in MTL without ever taking the subject, if that's indeed the reference (average?) score of the other students. For more context, refer to this news article from 2016.
(Several things stand out in the article:
- Exempted children would probably be assigned a better mother-tongue grade than they may have earned on their own.
- Parents will usually hope to get exemption because doing the subject at foundation level may mean a higher likelihood of (their children) being sorted into the Normal (Academic) stream rather than Express.)

Notwithstanding, the current MOE FAQ is also correct. It states:
"To determine the assigned MTL score, reference is made to MTL scores of other students who have achieved similar scores in English, Mathematics and Science. The same approach is taken in today's T-Score system."

What's important to note is that MOE only states that reference is being made, it never said anything about the final score being used (doublespeak). The next paragraph (which the image has left out) actually expands on that detail, i.e. capping of score to AL6 (看戏要看全套):
These students will be assigned an MTL score between AL 6 and 8, similar to the equivalent AL scores for Foundation level subjects. This acknowledges that this group of students has valid reasons for seeking MTL-exemption or taking an AsL/FL, while recognising that the majority of students do take an official MTL at the Standard or Foundation level and therefore bear a heavier learning and assessment load.

Therefore, yes, it's a departure from the current practice where exempted students' MTL "scores" are likely to be greater than foundation students' scores, and the same as those taking 4 standard subjects, while spending less time and effort compared to them.

IMHO I don't think MOE is wrong to close this "loophole". Given that most who have gotten exemption from MTL clearly understand this as a "loophole", I don't see what's wrong if changes have to be made together with the rest of the PSLE AL changes. Their main grouse seems to be, it's a "loophole", but please penalise someone else (from 2023) and not us who had made the decision to make use of the "loophole".

Finally, as the news article from 2016 shows (n.b. we may have the 151st media, but sometimes, they are still worth paying attention to) and MerlioninGermany has mentioned, there are already some signals that MOE is looking into it:
"Still, there is some worry if more will be tempted to apply, in the hope of relieving their children of what could be their weakest subject, which could drag their PSLE score down."

Hendon
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by Hendon » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:45 pm

floppy wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:25 pm
lee_yl wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:23 am
Davischew wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:13 am
Even if the average of 3A* pupils get 100, for MTL there is still a factor (not sure if's 0.64), so it still scale down to max 64 points.
If the ST forum letter is misleading, then MOE should come out to clarify. Else there will be readers who believe that it is possible to get an imputed score of A* for MTL for exempted students.

Under the current tscore system, EMS average score 95% + imputed MTL score 64%, tscore likely to be around 255, eligible for IP, not necessary must be A* for Chinese

Good for MOE to also confirm if exempted student could only get an imputed score capped at 64% for MTL under the current tscore system.
This is where understanding of political doublespeak would be useful. Also, it is why the marketplace Chinese aunties would advise you to 看戏要看全套,听话要听到完.

Firstly, the letter is not misleading. Previously, the assigned MTL score is made with reference to MTL scores of other students who have achieved similar scores in EMS. Therefore, students who scores A* in EMS could possibly receive A* in MTL without ever taking the subject, if that's indeed the reference (average?) score of the other students. For more context, refer to this news article from 2016.
(Several things stand out in the article:
- Exempted children would probably be assigned a better mother-tongue grade than they may have earned on their own.
- Parents will usually hope to get exemption because doing the subject at foundation level may mean a higher likelihood of (their children) being sorted into the Normal (Academic) stream rather than Express.)

Notwithstanding, the current MOE FAQ is also correct. It states:
"To determine the assigned MTL score, reference is made to MTL scores of other students who have achieved similar scores in English, Mathematics and Science. The same approach is taken in today's T-Score system."

What's important to note is that MOE only states that reference is being made, it never said anything about the final score being used (doublespeak). The next paragraph (which the image has left out) actually expands on that detail, i.e. capping of score to AL6 (看戏要看全套):
These students will be assigned an MTL score between AL 6 and 8, similar to the equivalent AL scores for Foundation level subjects. This acknowledges that this group of students has valid reasons for seeking MTL-exemption or taking an AsL/FL, while recognising that the majority of students do take an official MTL at the Standard or Foundation level and therefore bear a heavier learning and assessment load.

Therefore, yes, it's a departure from the current practice where exempted students' MTL "scores" are likely to be greater than foundation students' scores, and the same as those taking 4 standard subjects, while spending less time and effort compared to them.

IMHO I don't think MOE is wrong to close this "loophole". Given that most who have gotten exemption from MTL clearly understand this as a "loophole", I don't see what's wrong if changes have to be made together with the rest of the PSLE AL changes. Their main grouse seems to be, it's a "loophole", but please penalise someone else (from 2023) and not us who had made the decision to make use of the "loophole".

Finally, as the news article from 2016 shows (n.b. we may have the 151st media, but sometimes, they are still worth paying attention to) and MerlioninGermany has mentioned, there are already some signals that MOE is looking into it:
"Still, there is some worry if more will be tempted to apply, in the hope of relieving their children of what could be their weakest subject, which could drag their PSLE score down."
:goodpost:

laughingcat
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by laughingcat » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:48 pm

Floppy :goodpost: You have nailed it. The loopholes.

Hendon
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by Hendon » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:01 pm

First the article triggered after the petition was launched

https://www.tnp.sg/news/singapore/petit ... sle-system

Subsequently it was not a lady (as some posts had referred) but a father who wrote in defence of the need for changes to the current system of exemptions. He is named ‘Peter Wadeley‘

https://www.straitstimes.com/forum/lett ... ing-system
Last edited by Hendon on Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

phtthp
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Re: All About PSLE AL Scoring System

Post by phtthp » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:18 pm

Hendon wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:01 pm
It was not a lady (as some posts had referred) but a father who wrote in defence of the need for changes to the current system of exemptions. He is named ‘Peter Wadeley‘

https://www.straitstimes.com/forum/lett ... ing-system
they are 2 separate articles.

the first post is from Madam Wee

this new 2nd post today, from "Peter Wadeley" appeal for something else instead. That the current Tscore system for Exempted students is unfair, hence ought to make changes immediately, to rectify (correct) the situation

Both are talking about different things

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